In Part 1 of our interview with Greg Trosper, President of Fire and Explosion Consultants, LLC (FEC), we delved into his background and how he transitioned from a career in business to becoming President of a prominent forensic fire investigation agency. Greg shared insights about the importance of technology in fire investigations and highlighted the challenges some agencies have with adopting new technologies.
He also discussed key leadership qualities, evidence management strategies, and the unique challenges of transitioning from public to private sector investigations for some investigators. Additionally, Greg emphasized the significance of digital evidence management and his excitement about implementing DigitalOnQ.
Let’s dive into Part 2, where Greg begins discussing the difference between digital evidence and handling evidence digitally…
Greg: There are probably still firms out there that manage evidence in Excel. I love Excel. I’m an Excel wizard, but I would never manage evidence with Excel. If I build my evidence in Excel, I can break it. And other people can break it. I’ve built some really good spreadsheets that I thought were impenetrable, but people have found a way to screw them up.
When we talk about software like DigitalOnQ, we don’t get to see the background and we don’t get to see the code, which is fantastic because nobody can break that. And obviously, there’s support to help us if they do.
So there are two sides, there’s digital evidence – we don’t get into pulling social media stuff, that’s more for the public guys. On our side, the private side, that’s more SIU, so that’s mainly with insurance carriers. We don’t really want to get into that side, but that’s also digital evidence
Digital evidence has been around for quite some time, but managing evidence digitally needs a massive overhaul in the industry, in my opinion.
Kristee: You currently use a different evidence management software provider, but apparently, that system is not addressing your digital management needs.
Greg: No, that system only manages our physical evidence, our tangible evidence. They have a repository for digital evidence (similar to Dropbox), but it’s not a digital evidence management system. You can upload digital evidence, but it’s not managing it like a true DEMS should.
***Greg shared his screen to demonstrate the difference between a repository for digital evidence and a true DEMS. It looked something like this…
This is the file share program that we built. Every file represents one of our investigators. This is where they put their digital evidence. Jeff is very good about uploading digital evidence, and this is where he’s managing some of that. Looks like we’ve got a video in here and then all of these photos from his scenes.
So this is the digital evidence, and this is how we currently maintain it. This is something that we built, it’s on our server. We have 6 -14 terabyte drives to handle the amount of data that we process, year in and year out.
This can easily be replaced by DigitalOnQ. Our current program is internal, so if I need to share these photographs with any of you, I can’t. I have to take them off this system, put them on my OneDrive, and send them to you.
But I don’t get any of the tracking that DigitalOnQ will provide. To view these in our current system, the guys will go to a website – so it’s not as secure as possible – but they know how to get there. Then, they would have to download them to view them. It’s not nearly as easy as DigitalOnQ
It will be much easier for them to log into FileOnQ and see their physical and digital evidence all in one place. It will be much easier to sort through, search for, and analyze evidence.
And everything is documented – what you look at, what you download, what you share. Everything’s documented in the chain of custody, and that’s what really attracted me to DigitalOnQ.
The fact that I will be able to track… Who did we share this file with, who viewed it, and when did each touch take place? Not having to use OneDrive or Dropbox, but to be able to have FileOnQ that does it all in one secure location? That piece is huge.
Kristee: One thing I learned from Steve, who is the expert on DigitalOnQ, was if you change so much as one pixel in a photograph, the system gives the changed version a new tracking number. You still have the original, but it shows that it was altered. So, if you had to go to court, that’s how you can prove you have the original because it’ll get a new hashtag if you change anything about it.
Also, a true DEMS allows you to sort, group, and organize by file type. Most evidence management software providers don’t have that ability. And they can’t they “citizen” or” group share.
Greg: In our current system, when we take photographs and drop them into our reports, we actually have a disclaimer that says, These may have been modified. We may have pointers on there to say, They’ve been reduced from the original size to fit the format of our reports. It’s the same thing, but it’s not in its original state.
Kristee: You guys seem WAY ahead of the curve when it comes to your fire investigation processes. It’s like you’re preparing for the future of evidence management instead of just reacting to the challenges of the day.
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Greg: I’m not trying to pat ourselves on the back, but nobody has what we have with our server.
Most people are behind that. So we’re already ahead of them now, in my opinion. And we’re going to get further ahead of them when we switch to DigitalOnQ. I think we may be able to help people jump from two steps behind us up to DigitalOnQ. But we kind of pride ourselves on being in a visionary role. Meaning people have followed our lead on some of the things we have done in the industry.
Kristee: How did the company get to this point? How are they so forward-thinking?
Greg: Because our leadership recognizes we hire fire investigators to investigate fires and not to be accountants, cost analysts, or administrators. Our admin and office staff only focus on the administration of the business. As somebody who runs the day-to-day, it’s something that I pride myself on.
None of our fire investigators do budgets or invoicing. They just go out, and they work fires. They put their time in, and everything else is on the admin side. We do separate that because specialization is around for a reason.
The problem is that most firms don’t have the admin support like we do. We’re not the biggest, but we’re close to it. We’re not going to be a big box, but we still have a high ratio of admin-to-investigator workforce.
Kristee: That’s a great business model, but when I say forward-thinking, I mean more big-picture planning. For example, how could someone possibly know that you would need an 18,000-square-foot warehouse or that you would need 6 – 14 terabytes of digital storage? You guys must have seen the future somehow.
Greg: We’re only 11 years old. From 2012 – 2019, we only had 4,000 square feet. During that time, it was like playing Tetris, trying to fit everything in our warehouse. We ended up having like three storage units. Luckily, a building was coming up for sale right behind our office, and it was roughly 33,000 sq. ft with 18,000 sq. ft. of warehouse. It was exactly what we needed which was mainly warehouse.
We understand where we’re heading, and we try to build in enough to grow and be nimble at the same time.
Kristee: What type of evidence do you typically take in?
Greg: If I were to walk you out to my warehouse right now, you’d see a lot of ranges, a lot of flu pipes, some gas pipes, some water heaters, a lot of totes of debris, dehumidifiers, and small electronics. We’ve got a lot of vehicles secured in our outdoor lot. We do have several lawnmowers or small-engine vehicles. We’ve had a grain elevator and a dust collection system.
Occasionally, we’ll take in things we’ve never seen before. We’ve got couches in the back. We’ve had some mattresses before. Refrigerators, a lot of fireplaces. Every once in a while, we’ll take something that’s just random.
Kristee: Have any fire investigation cases lingered with you over the years?
Greg: Absolutely. We had a commercial kitchen fire, which required us to store the evidence for almost 8 years. We also had a line-of-duty death, which we stored for 8 years as well.
Kristee: How about we get into some personal stuff? I know you played soccer for 20 years, and you’re now a runner. Do you have family?
Greg: My wife also played college soccer. We met because we coached at the same club for a while. Now we’ve got two little ones: Four and two years old.
Kristee: Any other hobbies, music, travel?
Greg: I’ve got a four and a two-year-old at home.
Kristee: Right. Point well made. And a full-time job. You barely have time to eat and sleep.
Greg: I golf when I can.
Kristee: Is there anything that you really don’t like about your job?
Greg: Sometimes the job can lack closure. There are those cases which are very intriguing and, for understandable reasons are shut down before a final hypothesis is reached. We get it, but there is still that desire to continue to process and analyze to reach that final conclusion. Unfortunately, it is not always time or cost-effective to do so.
Kristee: Is there any issue that you have – it doesn’t have to be software related – that is something you want to solve, but you haven’t found a solution yet?
Greg: Yes. I’d love to standardize private investigation licenses across all 50 states. The IAAI took a crack at it in the late 90s, but the states were not too receptive to the idea.
For me, states can continue to charge what they want to charge. We’re just trying to make the application standardized across all 50 states because licensing is the bane of our existence.
That’s because every state is different. Every state has little nuances. I’m licensed in North Carolina, and they actually ran a credit check on me.
I hold licenses in six states. I probably have my fingerprints run once a year at least, at minimum. Because that’s what it’s required to do when you renew your license. We even had a guy who argued by saying, I’m 72 years old. My fingerprints haven’t changed since I was four; they don’t change. So why do you have to have a new card every year? You can just continue to run the old one.
And there are different fee structures. Sometimes, you have to get the company licensed first, and then the investigators. In the other states, you have to license an investigator first, and then you can do the company. Some you have to test for, some you don’t have to test for. I mean, it could almost be a full-time job for somebody at this company.
It’s awful. It would be great if everybody would just agree… this is what we want. And at the end of the day, the information they’re requesting is all pretty much the same. It’s just how they go about it.
Every state has fire investigations under different categories. Virginia files us under the Department of Criminal Justice Services. They handle private investigations. A different state would handle us like professional engineers. A lot of times, they lock us in with professional licenses in general. Then, you have professional engineers, surveyors, private investigators, and security guards. Every state does it differently.
Kristee: You mean private investigation specifically for fire, right?
Greg: For us to do work in most states – I bet you 42 of the 50 states – require that an individual be licensed as a private investigator in the state. You have to have a private investigation license. Pennsylvania calls them private detectives; I call them private investigators. But you have to be one of those before you can investigate the origin and cause of a fire event.
Kristee: Have any of them required you to give a DNA sample?
Greg: No, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they did.
Kristee: A lot of fire investigation processes out there are so archaic. It’s like they’ve stepped back into the 90s, but they don’t know how to catch up with the times. They need a road map. That’s why we wanted to interview you about what’s working, what’s not working, and what people need in their facilities.
With everything you’ve shared today, you have proven to be the guide, the mentor, and the apprentice that fire investigators have been looking for. The icing on the cake – and what makes your experience so valuable – is that it’s not limited to one county, city, or state. You have experience from nearly half of the country. Thank you so much for your time today, Greg.
Greg: Thank you for having me.
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